Welcome to the Process & Automation podcast with the automation guys. Usually you hear on, Arno and myself talking about all things, prosses and automation, and that’s all in general, but there’s, we also ask our listeners what they like. Been so kind, um, uh, recently sending us plenty of feedback and our listeners like interview episodes a lot.

And, um, so here’s another one. Another interview episode with two very interesting guests who had the same passion for process and automation as we do. And was, that was a great pleasure to welcome our guests, Adrian from week and Dennis Parker from Jigx to the podcast. Hello, both. Thank you for joining us today.

Yeah, thank you for having us. We appreciate it. It’s uh, it’s good to be here, right? It’s um, yeah, thank you for, uh, for your time. And, um, yeah, as, as, um, a start, please tell us a bit more about what you both are doing and what you’re responsible for. Jake’s. So I’m, I’m, uh, one of the founders and CEO, um, the, we, uh, started Jigx’s January 1st, 2020.

So before the pandemic hit and, uh, and we’ve been working pretty much on, on architecture and technology and then building the software, uh, through that. We reached out to some of the best people we’ve worked with in the industry in the past. And one of the guys that, that was very instrumental, um, to help us build the previous company is Dennis.

Uh, so I called Dennis and asked him if he didn’t want to help us start this business. And Dennis, I’ll let you do a sort of your introductions and what you’re busy with. Um, but, uh, yeah, so we’ve been working in the last year and a half to build this company, which we’ll talk. Yeah. Um, yeah, thanks very much.

So I said, yeah. So from my perspective, I’m pretty much as Adrian said, I mean, we’ve got some, uh, some, some history together, um, whether it ought to focus on it’s on the promotion automation on the process automation space. Um, and you know, I think as we’ll talk about during this interview, what we’re doing now, um, I think really it’s it’s the core of our passions is sort of, um, it’s is automation because you’re helping customers do things in a digital way, much more efficiently.

And we’ll, we’ll talk about that. Um, but it’s also exciting and it’s fun, um, because there’s development at the root of this as well. Um, and again, we’ll talk about that, but I think bottom line, um, you know, I think there’s a, an amazing opportunity and it’s a, an amazing opportunity to follow a passion, um, and do something really interesting.

And looking forward to talking about that a little bit more as we go through the session today. Okay. Sounds, sounds really good. Um, so the sort of journey you had together before was, was K2, right? Yeah, absolutely. Um, so, uh, so that’s, uh, that could take a whole port cost on its own. Yeah, we can do that.

Yeah. At some point, yeah. We, uh, we survived black belt together, which like that is a podcast on its own. Um, but it was, uh, you know, definitely we used all the, all the good things, all the, all the mistakes we made and, uh, I think collectively we have, uh, we have enough at the end of the day. Fantastic. Yeah.

And everything flows now into chicks. Uh, really exciting to hear more about that. So, um, yeah, but between Arnold, myself, we are working with, uh, probably like 15 plus vendors to support, uh, companies was, was, was all things process and automation and, um, um, where do, where do you see the sweet spot for Gitxsan tomorrow?

Yeah, that’s a great question. We, um, as we mentioned, we both come from my, uh, uh, an automation background and, and we live that for 17 years. We saw the world evolve. Minute’s actually amazing. We started this before HTML was even used, um, in the market maybe even existed. So it’s, it’s been an exceptional journey.

And throughout that journey, Definitely learned a lot. And we see technology evolve when we see sort of not just technology, but how people work and how they collaborate and how they get things done, uh, evolve over 17 years. And then in, uh, during that journey, you see opportunities and you see things that you think you can improve on that, that you don’t always have time.

That’s probably not core to what you were doing. And jigx was sort of born out of one of those ideas where if you look at, if you look at automation today and you look at how people. I mean, there’s, there’s a lot that shows that if we can break things down into smaller pieces and get those pieces done very quickly and people not just become more productive, but they actually feel more productive as well.

So rather than sitting you down and, and, and, and, and letting people work on a task for an extensive period of time, if we can understand how to move that tasks between people that are the best at what they do, or even if it’s the same person, break it up into various. Periods of time now it’s interesting because one of the, one of the.

Technical innovations that sort of brought this, this psychological pattern to the front. This is mobile devices where your engagement with the mobile devices are very short, very focused and drive a very specific outcome very quickly. And, uh, and we’re sort of, you know, the interfaces into mobile devices was hard.

So, so the people that sort of building software, and especially when Apple started driving the revolution, Android then followed and. We ended up with these two very powerful platforms. Um, um, people had started building solutions for those platforms. We’re sort of forced into making sure that they build their applications in a way that engagements are very short, but very productive.

Now that worked incredibly well for social and media and collaboration applications and the one area that never really followed that. Was, um, applications that people use for work, um, whether it’s internal within the organization or business to business, business, to consumer. It’s actually very rare to see companies build some of these highly effective applications, um, for use within Lyft, the productivity of their own staff, and almost every single employee is walking around with a super computer in their pockets these days.

Um, and, um, so we looked at that whole space. We looked at the fact that. The majority of workers today and where we actually see growth in labor markets are people that don’t sit in front of desks or in front of computers. And we said somewhere in that, there’s an opportunity. So can we make it really easy for people?

Do you know, to harness this power that’s in the buckets of their employees or their business partners or their customers. And, um, and that’s where jigs came from. So, um, it’s not just about making it easy to book us applications it’s actually also about, but. Um, letting them do it in a way where these short engagements and massive increase in productivity is almost guaranteed.

Um, you know, so it sounds like a lot, but it’s actually a very simple idea and a very simple concept. And we were looking for a very, very simple solution to that. And we’ve been working for the last year and a half to get there. And it’s certainly been a fun journey we’re by no means. Close to the finish line, but we are seeing the first customers just absolutely falling in love with what we’ve done once they’ve seen it, they cannot unsee it and they.

This almost deployed, um, exponentially throughout their organization as a time goes by. So, so it’s been pretty exciting. It’s been an exciting journey for us so far then I, sorry, I didn’t mean to go on that long, but I wanted to sketch the background. I think you’ve been working a lot with customers. You also understand this better.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think, I mean, you can, you can certainly hear the, hit the passion of the, of the core platform. I guess, you know, our job is to try and, um, uh, kind of make it simple for customers and look, the most simple thing is an order. Nailed it, rod, the end, where he said, when you put a Jake’s application in front of a customer, um, We’ve just seen these wonderful reactions from customers.

And that’s what gets us out of bed in the morning, you know, because, um, technology can do all sorts of clever things, but often even if it’s incredibly clever in the back end at the end of the day, uh, customers want to be delighted with what what’s in front of the. Um, and that’s what we, you know, that’s really the area where we’re focusing on and making the experience unbelievable for customers.

And we’re getting a good reaction to that. So, you know, I think that’s the thing, there’s that there’s the old and energy of the, of this one over the, of the lake, um, where it’s beautiful and then a lot of stuff going on under the surface to make that happen. Um, and I think that’s quite a good energy here.

If you want to put a really good looking app in front of a business unit, Uh, which at the same time is authenticated. It’s integrated into, for example, the SAP environment, it works offline. It’s really quick. Um, what to do all that magic in the back. There’s a little bit of kind of complexity that you need to solve there.

Um, and that probably describes quite well, what we’re trying to achieve in Jigx it’s it’s that it’s that beautiful front end with that kind of backend, uh, technology change that I’ve described. And so there’s a few pillars in there, uh, which might be a place for us to, to kind of head to next, because, you know, we do think about things very clearly in terms of what we’re trying to achieve.

And then, and then everything, every kind of, um, you know, everything we focus on, um, is built around these pillars because, you know, otherwise you can get very distracted in this, in this domain and go all over the place. So, so there’s a few pillars that we focus on as we, as we think about solving. Yeah, but of course, for our listeners out there, uh, Dennis, um, on this podcast, we talk a lot about use cases and application of technology.

And, uh, I think, um, the question I’ve got for you guys is, you know, what do you think is the most exciting or impactful use cases that can be delivered by the Shakespeare? Yeah, that’s a good question. I don’t know. Um, the, there’s a couple of things. I mean, we, as I mentioned, when we built the platform for very specific scenarios where, um, you know, we feel the criteria fits well.

Um, you know, if you are a person who sits in front of your day, You know, eight hours a day on your computer, actively typing and working on content chicks will play less of an effective role for that person. Um, we do see that, um, you know, a significant percentage and I think it’s more than 50% of the world’s labor market is actually not in that position where they sit in front of their computer Saturday, you empower them.

To be successful in how the above businesses to be successful. And that’s those scenarios that we started out for, with chicks. Now, it’s fascinating. I’ll give you a couple of use cases and they’ll hand over to Dennis, but, um, we have a very big lubricant company out of Germany. Actually. It’s not Germany that based out of that another European company, but they.

They make lubricants and it’s being sold through, um, uh, vehicle consumer motor vehicle, consumer stores, um, in the U S it’s similar. Uh Riley’s I’m not sure what the brands are in, in, in Europe and then garages and mechanics and, and those places they sell their products. But this company doesn’t have a direct relationship with these people.

These people work for you, that other businesses, where they own their own businesses. And so how do they stay top of mind to the wisdom? How do they send them latest news announced latest products, make sure that like the straining materials available, that if that person, if a car drives into that person’s store and they need for a specific on a lubricant for a vehicle.

That there’s an easy way for them to identify that their product is the right product and the owner recommends their product as opposed to something else. So we started working with them and they have about 32,000 of these locations. We built a prototype for them, which, um, these distributors have their, so these dealers can then download and immediate.

Um, the person can use that device and they can use that. Do receive all the latest training material, all the latest contract performance that they have signed. They can request recycling services, they can scan a number plate of a car and immediately see what products are relevant to that car. They can send push content, latest promotions, packages, deals that they have do that person’s phone.

So suddenly. You go from being completely disconnected with these study 2000 locations. Cause they don’t work for you and they, they belong to you. To being top of mind, um, almost on a constant basis. Um, and it’s completely changing the way that they think about how they reach ultimately the end consumer is through a proxy.

So that’s one, one example. Um, and th there’s a lot of ones. There’s ones that Dennis to talk about where you just now finished working on a scenario for a live service. The rants emergency services with helicopters and they need an application that goes offline and works with them. It’s completely on the other side of the spectrum, we have, um, uh, uh, hotel groups that have the people that do the maintenance within the hotel.

And this is thousands of people throughout this group. That really didn’t have any mechanism to easily communicate, um, to get tasks, to report incidents, to report us, to do normal HR stuff, uh, receive training, get important information. And using Gitxsan, having this first first-line application on their devices, all of that suddenly becomes a, uh, becomes, uh, becomes possible.

Um, and that list is that list is incredibly long for a business it’s for a little company like, oh, it’s been around for about 18 months, but then again, they list. Um, he heads up everything that has, um, both cells and after sales to do with our customer. So, Dennis, I mean, you, you’re definitely in the position where you see these use cases, um, over the, um, so look, I think the, uh, the, the kind of, what am I being.

Um, a bill, um, example we’ve talked to quite well there. Um, but, uh, it really is. I mean, I, I might might want to just underline that by saying if you think about the before an often. So the before is that you’ve got, um, a bunch of representatives basically running around the country with, uh, notepads, uh, using relationship based setting to try and get guaranteed Jonah’s to order product and look in some instances that’s great at work.

So they, and then. You know, imagine that five minutes later, their competitors in the same door and sending them the same products and you know what, what’s one other, the other, um, compare that to a situation where you’ve got, uh, an incredibly compelling visual, uh, application on your phone. Um, well, honestly you can just order and self-service yourself straight off that phone.

Um, and, and, you know, that’s just almost revolutionizing the way that that customer will do business. And I, and I think the interesting thing is, is that that It’s not only specific to this automobile customer, it’s basically any customer who’s got distribution. So if you think about a one to many relationship where you don’t have a digital connection with your customer, and suddenly now you do, while you really start to open up, you know, um, interesting possibilities.

So just, you know, following actually that example this morning, in fact, they called me and they said, look, you know, we’ve got this brilliant. But we’ve now got an idea for extension. Because they started to think digitally. They now want to put digital sensors in the oil tanks in the garages that tell them before the customer starts ordering, we’ll tell them, Hey, you need to order a new oil that will integrate with our phone app and notify the guy.

You’ll get a notification on his phone saying your oil tank has just hit below 50%. You want order a new oil? So, you know, they’re right there. It’s just. Uh, an evolution of, of this example leading to, to some more interesting scenarios. So, so, you know, um, exciting, um, possibilities. I, I’m going to mention probably another one that, um, is probably what it’s less impactful from a business point of view, but probably could not be more impactful from a, from a day-to-day, uh, life point of view.

Um, and that’s, um, air ambulances. Where you can imagine a helicopter going off, um, uh, to, to rescue lives. Um, and it turns out that the complexity of dispatching a helicopter, um, is, is high. You know? So firstly, you know, what time of day or night are you doing this? How long has the crew been on duty? Is anybody else?

What equipment in the headquarters there? What crew are there? What risks do they need to assess? And so all of those myriad of decisions that they need to take. Um, for every extra second that they spend doing that there’s life on the other end of that decision. Right? So, so they wanted the ability to very quickly assess the risk of they’re about to take whilst they, uh, spooling up that headache and going to a life.

Um, and, and again, we’ve, we’ve, we’ve created this app for them that they can do those kinds of things. So kind of assess whether risk people, uh, very, very quickly on an iPad app on the knee of a pilot or a copilot, um, as they’re getting that helicopter ready to launch. Um, and that that’s been amazing to work on.

I mean, there’s just been, been really, really cool. So, so look, there’s others we can go through, but, you know, from. From those examples. We’ve, you know, we’re working with legal companies who want to give again, their customers a better insight into what’s happening with their case, um, or insurance brokers that when, you know, when they go on and see their clients better information on their policies and their claims and, you know, kind of what, what they’re doing.

So, so I think it’s, you know, it’s, it’s, uh, like I said, in the biggest. Um, we’re excited because the possibilities are, are really interesting. Um, the experience and the change that we think, uh, can happen as a result of these exes is fascinating. Um, and it’s, you know, it’s really equally kind of entwined or, um, integrated with, with our passion and our history to, you know, use technology to solve these kinds of.

And it sounds really, really interesting. And we were talking about all this stuff as well, here and small businesses as well. And you mentioned that earlier, the oldest rates men, these days isn’t that they, they, they don’t like to lock even into a computer anymore. Isn’t that? Because it’s so tiring for them.

So they have the whole business. Ideally on their phone, isn’t it in their phone. Yeah. It’s very true. Such as you know, between phones and tablets these days. Um, what we see as us, and it’s not just a small company, it’s actually some of the bigger companies. I think mark Benioff is famous for saying that he runs the entire sales force from his phone, um, because he can get to everything from there.

Um, so I think it, it, it spans beyond just small businesses and. Pretty much empowers people, uh, you know, to, to me, as we sit before, you know, sort of focused on micro tasks and be highly productive. Um, now the important thing, as we talk through these use cases to understand about Jake’s is, is that we set out to build a platform and a set of tools, um, that actually allows other people to build and configure the solutions.

You know, right now we’re involved in a lot of them because we’re going through early stage. But we are seeing the majority of our opportunities actually coming from early partners. Um, you know, who are solution companies, building solutions for, for their customers that are, uh, seeing the potential and, and seeing the technology being used or showcased.

And that’s ultimately what we’ll be doing is we’ll be going to market through this channel, um, and allowing them to actually build these solutions. Um, and, uh, and then all companies want to use the technology in-house to build these solutions. So the number of use cases will expand pretty dramatically as, uh, as we open up the platform to more and more people to use, to solve the business problems with.

Cool. Yeah. Um, I know, I mean, I just sort of follow on from what session said. I mean, th th the sort of use cases of, um, I’m not sure where the trades person is the right thing, but it’s certainly, you know, if we think about guys doing, you know, electrical or gas inspection, Is this whole use case of, uh, you know, where do I need to go?

What’s my most efficient routine. And then, you know, the job of actually being, um, uh, thorough on your checklist as you go through sort of certification of a property against an interesting use case of, you know, no computer needed. If you’ve got a mobile on your, in your, in your pocket, you can get that job done and totally automate that task in a way that’s quite, uh, quite fun, hopefully rather than being.

It takes platform, also support offline, um, from what I seen and, and that seems to be, um, quite a compelling offering and a differentiator for you guys. Um, so can you tell us a bit more about that, the sort of the offline capabilities and where you see, um, that comes into the frame? Um, you mentioned a use case of inspections perhaps in basements, um, up in the helicopter with is there’s this note.

Uh, wifi connection, for example. So that in itself seems like what a compelling feature of, of Jake’s. Yeah. So, so, um, offline actually plays two roles and they are equally important. I mean, I guess you can August three. Um, but on a very high level, it’s about experience number one and number two, um, Information availability.

Um, and we wanted to, if, when we looked at all the options that are out there today, uh, every single one of them, um, taking data from an undefined number of data sources and making them. Um, available offline without doing a lot of work. It’s incredibly hard. And I would say it’s probably one of the areas where we’ve developed most of our IP and during the first phases of developing the software, it says, regardless of whether your data is coming from.

Um, SAP or a web service in the cloud or SQL server in the cloud or information that you’re storing on Google or Amazon, or, or even with, with dicks, we wanted to make sure that the experience of accessing that information. Number one, It’s just absolutely fantastic, which means that we don’t want to deal with the latency of fetching this data or cashing this data, or only some of the data being partially available.

We see that a lot as well. It’s just, you see a list of customers and when you click on the customer, unless you’re online and can’t load the detail of the customer and sort of, you know, the fact that you have the list of customers becomes unusable. So, so there was the whole concept around responsiveness of the user experience that, that, um, made us invest a lot in how we think about data and the availability and accessibility of data that doesn’t necessarily reside on the device.

And then the second thing is, is then of course, the data itself and the data integrity, um, having data that. Always there. You don’t have to think about the fact that you’re walking into a dark basement and did I sync my data? The data is there and it will be sink and, uh, and it is available and it’s not just the most of data that’s available.

It’s everything that you’re going to need to use yet successfully as available. And it just works. So there’s quite a lot of intelligence around that. There’s quite a lot of, um, sort of engineering work that we had to do to make sure that that. Burn through bandwidth that would make differential differential data courses.

There’s a lot that happened to make sure that from a usability point of view, it’s always first, last and always accessible. Then secondly, from a data availability point of view, it’s always there. And then the last piece, um, was. Sure that the data is secure. I think we we’ve also, we all see the horror stories constantly of data being hacked and data being stolen.

And the approach that we took there was just my saying, guys came up with such a beautiful and simple mechanism where it’s impossible. Um, Do do have men in the middle or any form of attack on, on the data. And then also for compliance, GDPR compliance and things like that. It just works. So yes, certainly data offline availability of the data, integrity of the data, the data being divided.

I mean devices and the cloud was a big area of focus for us, and we think it will be a significant differentiator with the IP that we’ve developed there. Very cool stuff.

Uh, yeah, we mentioned, um, uh, we were looking at all sorts of intelligent automation, hype automation. And so when we look a bit into the future, where do you see things developing for companies? You know, you, you, you, you mentioned maybe a few already, but where do you see developing a hold is w where does it go?

All this automation for companies. Good question. We, we suddenly, we started when we started, um, K two. Let’s listen, do you sound competitive landscape look completely different than, and even the sort of analyst coverage at that point, it was very different. Um, you know, in the early days it was actually a really simple, um, it was, it was a school workflow because work would flow between people and work would flow between machines and then, and sort of, yeah, the analysts felt that some.

The, everybody has done that now. And there’s not much more to say about that. And so they switched to BPM where they will, the business process automation and it sort of elevated, or they felt like it elevated, um, you know, the subject matter to a higher level. And, and then of course, sort of all the vendors.

Very quickly red Godness Piper, and they started making sure they got all the boxes, stick them. And then you show up one morning and sort of everybody’s got the BPM box ticked and then the analyst realized, but they need something new to do to make it even more interesting. So, so the edit the S which was, you know, really added content and, and, and, and, uh, you know, sort of.

All right. Um, anyway, the edit the S and so the analyst, you know, so now they had BPMs and, and suddenly none of the vendors had it that they could write the papers again, and then the sort of the cycle repeated itself. And, and, and then they realized that. Process automation with content, but what do we do next?

And where do we go? And then I think God, and I said, well, let’s, it’s an I in front of it. You cause he had the iPhone and the iPad. And if the coolest thing will be, if we have of course, they had to come up with a term for the IMO intelligence fitted nicely in there. And so suddenly Gardner could write a whole bunch of papers again.

Around I BPMs. And so it involved, I mean, it was just sort of, and then because then all the vendors added these capabilities and suddenly I wasn’t good anymore. And, uh, and so then they said, well, where do we go next? Then them they’re this big thing. That was massive thing. I mean, I think everybody at the switch off the phones, I’ve gotten for 15 minutes and they came up with a term.

And suddenly we had hyper automation. In fact, I mean the whole world came to a stance, the most beautiful moment in the industry because suddenly everybody had something to do again. But now we’re getting to the point where sort of hyperscale also worked its way out and you’ve got hyper speed and hyper this night I brought the motion.

So I think the next thing, if you go look at sort of where the world’s going to go, it’s going to be. Yeah, we have to have ludicrous automation. So I think the next thing is going to be ludicrous automation. Then all of these vendors will have something to go do again and, and, uh, and, and Gardner can write all their papers and people will be happy.

Again. Maybe processes will be automated before they even exist. You know, in our world, in our world, we think is going to go to simplicity. Actually we think all this. Complex at the end, the more complex is quadrants and layers that you have to measure before you realize what you’re doing well or not. We just think that’s nonsense.

We think, uh, the world’s actually going to go to a place of simplicity and behind simplicity sits a lot of technology and a lot of capabilities to make things easy and make it simple. But you know, already people struggle to. The set for long durations of time behind machines. So make the tasks smaller, make them easier, make them simpler, give them the information that they need to do that task immediately.

And so we really think it’s about getting stuff done. GSD, get shit done and, and getting stuff done. You know, the winners are going to be the people who can make things the easiest to do and the simplest to do. And you already, when you go look out there, you know, the cars that are the simplest engineered like Tesla, it’s only got three controllers for up perform an innovate, a typical poor Steichen.

That’s got 92 controllers, you know, so. That world of simplicity. I think it’s going to become a critically important when we look at automation. Um, and the question is, as you know, how is that going to be defined and how are we going to get there? We, we want to play a very small part in that we integrate into all the BPM vendors out there.

I’ll go. Let’s not beat a PPM vendor. Our goal is to detect a very small part of that, make it really easy and beautiful for people to work with. So, you know, we’re looking forward to ludicrous automation because I think that’s going to create a ton of opportunity. Yeah, definitely the requires mobile forms, forms and mobile apps.

Yeah, I think, um, I think Adrienne has made it fun, but, um, I think the one thing I see from the customer’s point of view is, is that they’re buying outcomes, right? So, um, I, I, you know, what we see is, is maybe in the past, you know, a lot of focus, uh, on which technology and how, and complexity and et cetera, et cetera.

Whereas now a lot of the conversations are with the business saying, um, you know, I just want to connect better with my customers. And if I can have a very compelling mobile experience that allows me to do that, to show that to me, give it. Um, and you know, they, there’s almost a certain trust that the technology will do what it’s doing.

Um, so whether we use driving as the analogy or whatever it is, um, I think very important for me would be just to stress that, you know, customers are buying outcomes these days. They’re not, they’re not interested in how you get. They want an outcome. Um, and, and that’s what, that’s what I’m seeing when I talk to customers on a, on a daily basis.

Yes. And of course, you know, Adrienne, you touched on the hyper automation, uh, that is certainly the buzzwords of 2021, uh, specifically with the pandemic where, uh, obviously everything was, was put into accelerated fashion and digital transformation. It’s also, I guess, lurking there in the background. Um, obviously between myself and Sasha, um, you know, we very much in that space, we talk about everything I bought animation.

I do sometimes feel mobile is slightly neglected because of course we talk about robotic process automation, traditional workflow automation, artificial intelligence, and process mining. So, you know, all of the, I guess the underlying pillars off of automation, You know, all of that aside and you know, all of the buzzwords you say that comes from the analysts, um, you know, what, what advice would you guys give, uh, jigs for, uh, companies that want to get started with these transformational projects where they’re not being digital transformation, hyper automation, or just like you said, getting shit done, you know, what, what is your address?

Um, I don’t know. I think, I think Dennis now where I sit, you know, we, we sort of, we feel at the end of the day, when you look back, it’s not the effort that counts, it’s the result. Um, you know, and so I think that you almost have to start there, you know, what is this, what is the thing that you want to accomplish and what is noise, all the other stuff around it and sort of, you know, This managed to find itself in a place where the more noise there is, the more, the more complex, the more complex it is, the more important we think things are.

It’s actually not the case, you know, and again, I go back to, um, you know, if you look at some of the most innovative, uh, moments in life happens actually around very simple things that. It was made easier to do. Um, so, so, you know, I guess where we sit and again, keep in mind that we ended up playing every small, small part of this, you know, I think it’s important to understand your business.

I think it’s important to use all the tools available to, to implement automation. I think the most important. If you were to take all technology off the table, do you understand your business? And you understand how to make the businesses easy and as simple as possible, good run, and therefore as great an experience for your customers as it is for your staff to provide that services and automation doesn’t automatically make a business better automation, make it faster and make it.

To make it better, but it doesn’t itself define success. So, so you know, where we sit on on the age of that you’re right. Um, whether you want to modernize an application, that’s been sitting in your desktop and, um, you know, the tools today to make. The easiest. It’s actually phenomenal. I mean, you can use RPA tools.

You don’t need API APIs to take what happens on that screen, actually modernize it and make it available on a smaller device. You know, and that’s one of the use cases that we see a lot, but I would say at the end of the day, it’s about understanding how to introduce simplicity into your business and that simplicity and the success of that simplicity is measured around the outcomes that you want to achieve.

And once you understand that it’s to sort of focus on that and get that done and just make the business more effective and efficient. Um, I don’t want to trivialize it. I mean, there are some businesses that are, are incredibly complex. Um, we had the, we were fortunate enough that we could visit, um, Costco and look into the heart of their operations.

Um, and I must say one of the things that stood out for me about that as the. Excellent extremes, which they pushed simplicity within, within that organization. It is just phenomenal where they profitability in the operations and how well their thing is run and all of these guys, but this, as I said, we want to run a simple business.

I mean, it’s a phenomenal success, but I can tell you simplicity takes a lot of work. It’s easy. It’s not easy. It’s incredibly hard to keep things simple. Um, you know, so. That’s sort of a topic that I think is top of mind for me. Um, and, uh, you know, I think there’s a, there’s a lot of sort of, uh, benefits and proofs that comes from from Sydney.

You know, looking at that within any organization, any size of organization, then again, I mean, you spend a lot more time with these customers. I mean, you’ll, you’ll have some interesting perspective. I think the easiest one for me to point to is I’m going to, it’s going to come back to outcomes. I mean, you know, when we see customers dreaming about stuff and we turn that dream into something that is, you know, absolutely tangible, they can see it, they see something absolutely visually compelling.

They go from dreaming to suddenly seeing reality. Uh, and they get excited. And, and I think that that’s a very different way of thinking about technology, you know, before I think when we, you know, when we think about the automation space, as we say, I mean, there’s a lot of technologies in the back end that make it a reality.

Um, including, you know, we’ve mentioned some of them RPA. CPMs and IBP mess and hyper automation and all these other things we’ve discussed. But at the end of the day, um, if you can put, um, a beautiful outcome in front of somebody that is going to help them do better digital things with their customers, um, you know, they, they get really, really excited and it’s been eye opening for me to see that with customers, particularly, um, in this mobile space where.

You know, it’s just, it is, it’s beautiful to see eyes opening and smiles on faces and, and, you know, these kind of wild reactions to people seeing these apps. So I’m going to leave it there. I’m going to leave it on the, on the outcome based approach, which I think is, um, you know, I think it’s going to be important to the year end.

fantastic. Yeah. Thank you very much for sharing that. So, um, Yeah, we and our listeners like to get to know our interior guests a bit more than sort of just the technical and the business side, although it’s quite quite quite exciting. And I would love to, to keep him chatting about him all that much longer and probably we will have another session at some point.

Um, so, and that’s why we like him. Um, They’re like your boss, a couple of quick questions. So I hope you okay. With some of, uh, some weird questions. So who likes to get started or like, do you like to have your, your shot on, uh, uh, on, on the, on the question at each who is your idol and why then as you go first, what was your idol?

Yeah, I’ll go first. And I know it’s going to be incredibly irritated probably with this one, but I’m going to put bill gates up there

for that. But anyway, we we’ve often discussed, uh, uh, the, to and fro of mechan and apple and Microsoft and what they’ve done, what they haven’t done. But I, over the years, um, I must say from very early. Um, I was inspired by, by a what at the time really was, I mean, this is late eighties, uh, was a very young bill gates, um, you know, starting to compete with IBM.

Um, and of course we know now it’s easy to look back and see what was achieved, but, but I think beyond that, there’s a few things beyond just the software. Um, I think he’s, you know, he’s applied some of his intellect into other areas and had great results. Um, and I think he continues to try and apply his intellect, um, into, into interesting projects that require that sort of combination of capital and intellect.

And I, I have a lot of admiration for that. So I’ll, I’ll leave it there from the idol point of view. I am. So, so I’ll add to that, Dennis. I think you’ll love my idol. I know I already got as well, but I think my, I mean, David Hasselhoff is my, my idol. I mean, the guy who could drive the crudest score in the world and then the, and then know.

Be a life guard for the second part of his life. I mean, that’s amazing. I mean, that’s skill that, I think that that’s the ultimate, you know, between kids and, and uh, in all seriousness, you know, I think my, um, I think my parents played a huge role, you know, I there’s two people. I hold my highest regard with it’s it’s my mom and my dad.

And I think my mom sort of, you know, is one that often pops into my head. Okay. But it made a huge difference in my life. You know, the things she taught me, and then she taught me about compassion and you know, that winning isn’t always the most important thing, although it feels painful to become sick and, you know, make sure that that in the process of, of, of winning you take care of those around you and the people that helped you.

And the it’s never a one man show. It’s always a team effort. I mean, there’s so many things and she never. She never schooled me on those topics. It was just sort of her way of life that influenced me. And, and, you know, I look back at that and I think, you know, I hope I can take a little bit of that, boss it on to, you know, the people that’s instrumental in my life.

And that helps me to accomplish the things that we accomplished as a team. And, um, so I would say that sort of, you know, where. Between David Hasselhoff. My mom, I think, you know, I’ve got two people to live up there. That’s great. Um, I guess with the working relationship you guys have gone to, I thought Adrienne’s going to say Dennis and sees idle and Dennis,

and this seems like that could be a catalyst. We’ll move it, move it onto the next question for you guys. Um, imagine you can get all the contents of the book instantly. And which book would you choose audio? Yeah, so there’s definitely, you know, saying that it’s a tough one or now, or give it background. So I suffer from this.

And, um, yeah, it’s something, I was pretty shy about news to hide my whole life. And then I saw my son is now 11 going through exactly the same thing, you know, and it’s sort of like, you know, then how to embrace it. So, so reading has always been very hard for me, but, you know, audio books. Uh, certainly changed it.

I fell in love with reading because there’s so much information that’s available and it’s such a wealth of in the world opens up for you. Um, you know, so it’s, it’s definitely something that I’m passionate about and I read both fiction, um, less fiction and, uh, um, You know, uh, books that are sort of more nonfiction that you can learn from.

So, so, you know, calling out two books with the wealth of content and information, that’s out there as a tough one, but, but I think that they do, um, that would stand out for me in the one it’s just because it’s a recent book that I read that I just found was just amazing. It’s a book called shoe dog. Um, and it’s the Nike.

Um, and if you haven’t read that book, I would highly encourage you to read that book yet. It’s not, again, it’s not going to be a Moses degree in business. It’s about building a real business with real people, with real customers and real challenges. And, uh, you know, I found. I wish I had that book earlier in my life earlier in my career.

And I keep it in front of my big cause I referred back to pieces of that when I think about things that’s happening with challenges that I face. So, so that’s one book. Um, it’s a fantastic read and it’s a really great book. And then the other one, which if I could recall anything from a book instantly, it would be breached foot Bamix.

I loved playing bridge the current. But man, it’s got complex rules. And when you sit across the table from a partner and you are sort of three rounds into a call to figure out what cramps are going to be and the rules that you have to apply in that point in time to make the perfect call, I would love to have that in this readily available.

So. You know, breech for them. He switches absolutely phenomenal game of strategy. If you even then to play a card game and then have to play a breech and suit shoe dog, I would say, would be, keep me busy for a while. And, uh, David hustle, autobiography, I follow these careers so closely. I then have to read this book.

Yeah. Yeah, I, so I was lucky. I grew up in a, in a place where there was while there was Sydney night internet. It was, uh, it was before the era of internet. And in fact, my, my parents were, it was the anti television. So there was only one thing you could do in the holidays. And that was read. Um, so it was basically that and did a lot of kind of adventure reading and whatever stuff.

Um, but the one area where I must say I have, which I have a huge interest in, in fact, I remember telling Jordan about this book early on, which was a pale blue dot a book by a guy called Carl Sagan. Um, amazing story of the universe and physics and science and so on and so forth. But all of this stuff comes back to, uh, kind of an understanding of physics, which has been beyond my mental grade.

And there is a great book out there. Um, uh, but.

And I say,

no, I want to read, I’d love to get into my head, but a combination of the intellectual kind of capacity. And it’s a kind of art day for me that are, that are really genuinely have a fascination science towards that. So, so yeah, that’s the one for me. Great. Thank you very much. So, um, what’s the best advice you have ever received?

I’ll go briefly on that one. Um, because my aunt’s is going to be brief and, uh, think it’s just, I think there’s two things. I mean, grew up with a bunch of mates. Some mood took themselves quite seriously and others went off and did their thing. And the guys who went off and did their thing and had a passion for it, uh, uh, you know, sort of 25 years later have really turned out.

Uh, things have turned out really well for them. So I think the advice is follow your passion first and make sure you’re having fun and then focus on what you do and make sure you do it really well. So, so I’ll, I’ll leave it short and sweet like that. That’s for me. Yeah. I think it’s, um, you know, same thing.

I mean, you get a lot of advice. I mean, the, you know, I’ve mentioned a deer. Taught me early on that, you know, it’s okay to fail. Um, you know, as, you know, as long as you understand why, and then you bounce back and, and if you really want to win, then you gotta get back in there and do the hard work to get to the top, you know, but taking risks and failing is fine, but played a big role in my life.

I think what are the other things that I learned, which I, I use it a lot, um, because the world is really sort of tense at this point. And I think it’s always been, but sort of being in the moment right now, um, Yeah. The advice that I got from rural that says never make a decision on a high or a low, uh, you know, uh, saved me from making a lot of wrong decisions.

Um, you know, and, uh, you know, between taking risks and it being fine to fail as long as you know, why that bouncing back and, uh, and not making decisions, you know, when emotion is high or emotional is low, but when you have all the facts. Making a clinical decision. I would say those, those two pieces of advice.

Very good advice. A long way in my life. Thank you. And then finally, uh, to you guys, um, if you could be an Olympic athletes, um, what’s.

I’ll jump in there. It’s simple for me. I mean, I have massive respect for all athletes. I mean, the dedication that goes into it and eventually they get to the Olympics. It’s just phenomenal. Um, you know, the one that sort of defies all logic for me and, you know, I, I just, I don’t know how they do like gymnasts, you know, and whether it’s, um, you know, people who work at the bars or the poles or on the floor, but.

Gymnast’s can do where they bodies and the coordination and that sort of the wherewithal of where you are in the process of executing those modes. Just absolutely incredible. I mean, those people for me are just phenomenal and yet the dedication and the age at which that dedication starts, you know, ultimately it’s incredible, but again, I don’t want to take anything away from anybody who makes it into the Olympics.

It’s a, it’s a phenomenal accomplishment. Uh, you know, I think across all sports anyway.

I’m talking to my mute button. Um, uh, you’re not gonna believe it, but it’s a snap. I had that same one written down. Um, but I’ll probably qualify it by saying the question was, what would you like to be? And I had to get real with myself and say, look, you’d love to be agendas, but you’ve, you’ve really got the body of assume a race.

Let’s say you should probably get a bit more interesting what it is that you want to do. So, but. I’ll go with, I’ll go with gymnast from a, from a wishing point of view and I leave it at that, but yeah, tremendous respect for anybody. Who’s got to the Olympics, incredible dedication and passion to get the, I absolutely agree.

I think this is the first day. You need to be episode where, where it’s not using bold. Isn’t it?

Great. Yeah. Thank you very much, guys. Um, so this, this will be sort of the end of our podcast interview. Um, fantastic. Um, uh, 50 minutes, 50 minutes, 60 minutes now. So, um, uh, thank you very much for, for, for sharing your insights and, um, uh, telling us all about jinx. Um, you know, it was a real pleasure and, um, Yeah, we’ll be, we’ll be great to have you on the podcast again in the future.

And, um, yeah. Thank you very much for, for, for being part of it and speak to you soon.

Unfortunately, that’s it again with this episode of the process and automation podcast. If you liked this episode, please give us a five-star rating and don’t forget to subscribe to this podcast so you don’t miss any upcoming episode. We hope you tune in next. And until then let’s automate.